The Orion Crew Module: A conversation with Lockheed Martin’s Mike Hawes

KENNEDY SPACE CENTER, Fla. — Within the lead-up to the primary Artemis 1 House Launch System launch try, Spaceflight Insider had the chance to talk with quite a few folks concerned in its design, development, meeting, and flight. A type of folks is Mike Hawes — Lockheed Martin House Programs Firm vp and Orion program supervisor.

A portion of our dialog with Hawes is beneath.

Gary Napier, communications supervisor for Lockheed Martin House Programs Firm, additionally participated within the dialogue.

Mike Hawes, Lockheed Martin House Programs Firm, Vice President and Orion Program Supervisor. Credit score: Challenger Heart for House Science Schooling, Inc.

SpaceFlight Insider: I feel you instructed me earlier your full identify is William Michael Hawes, and also you go by Mike, however the place are you from initially?

Hawes: I’m from northwestern Pennsylvania, initially. Small city of Greenville, Pennsylvania. City of, I feel it peaked round 8,500 folks, and has come down some since. So, form of a loopy area cadet from a small-town story.

SpaceFlight Insider: How did you get within the area enterprise?

Hawes: I’m an Apollo child. I used to be 13 when Buzz and Neil walked on the moon. I had adopted, definitely by means of the Gemini and all of the Apollo missions, and that simply captured me. I had science lecturers on the time [that] form of helped feed that. And I made a decision I needed to try this and to grow to be an aerospace engineer. Appeared like an inexpensive option to go pursue that. So, that’s what I did.

SpaceFlight Insider: So that you grew up there, went to highschool there?

Hawes: Went to highschool there.

SpaceFlight Insider: After which after that you simply went off to school?

Hawes: Went off to school. Went to the College of Notre Dame. And acquired my bachelor’s in aerospace engineering. And acquired employed proper out of college by NASA Johnson. They had been beginning to staff-up, notably to fly the House Shuttle Program.

SpaceFlight Insider: So, this could have been what? The 70s?

Hawes: Late ‘70s. ‘78. I went right down to JSC [(Johnson Space Center)] and spent 33 years working for NASA.

SpaceFlight Insider: If you first employed on, again within the 70s, what was your first place?

Hawes: I used to be working in a gaggle known as payload operations. And we had been attempting to determine how we had been going to do experiments with the House Shuttle, what was going to fly within the cargo bay. I acquired fairly rapidly slotted into a gaggle that was coping with the business com[munication] satellites that had been going to fly within the cargo bay and be deployed by the crews. So, that was form of the place my experience was. After which submit the Challenger accident, President Reagan decreed that the Shuttle was not going to be a launch car for business satellites. And so, at that time, I began transitioning into area station work and another work there on the Heart. And that finally led me to switch to NASA Headquarters doing area station work. And I stayed there and retired again in 2011 and went to Lockheed Martin.

SpaceFlight Insider: What was your final place once you had been at NASA Headquarters?

Hawes: My final place was known as Affiliate Administrator for Program Evaluation and Analysis. We did all this system critiques throughout the company, had all the fee estimating groups, and issues. So, I did that for 3 years. I transitioned Charlie in as Administrator.

SpaceFlight Insider: Charlie Bolden?

Hawes: Charlie Bolden. After which retired in 2011. ______ [inaudible] retirement [and] 30 days later confirmed up on the Lockheed Martin roles. And three years after that, they stated, nicely, we predict you actually need to go to Houston and construct spaceships. So, I’ve been doing that for the final eight years.

SpaceFlight Insider: If you first went to Lockheed, the place had been you?

Hawes: I used to be within the Washington, DC, space. Of their Crystal Metropolis, Virginia, workplace, doing form of the company liaison job. Working again with NASA. Working with the White Home. Serving to some with educating workers on the Hill, however extra the company of us.

SpaceFlight Insider: And you then did that for 3 years and . . .

Hawes: Did that for 3 years after which they determined that they needed someone to go construct Orion. So . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: And that was in Houston?

Hawes: Yeah, Orion, this system, is predicated in Houston. However we construct everywhere in the nation.

The Artemis-1 Orion crew module below development at NASA’s Michoud Meeting Facility (MAF) in New Orleans, La. Credit score: Scott Johnson / SpaceFlight Insider

SpaceFlight Insider: I’ve been to Michoud, and I assume the preliminary meeting . . .

Hawes: The primary construction is built-up in Michoud. It’s machined in Illinois and Los Angeles. After which it’s put collectively and welded in Michoud. After which it goes right here to Florida. And all the remainder of the construction and our harnesses and every little thing else will get put in. And so, I’m actually totally on the highway as a result of we’ve operations in Sunnyvale, California, Denver, Houston, New Orleans and Florida. And a bit little bit of assist from a pair different, like we’ve some work that’s executed at Lockheed Martin Aero in Fort Value. We’ve got some stuff in Owego, New York. So, there’s a couple of extra branches that helped us out.

SpaceFlight Insider: If you had been working again with NASA and doing a little area station work, I’m from . . . Alabama, and primarily cowl Marshall [Space Flight Cener], did you spend any time up there?

Hawes: Yeah. Oh, completely. A number of time at Marshall. I used to be early within the House Station Freedom period. I ended up as the top of utilization and operations and so, in fact, the utilization job is basically Marshall. You realize, and the POC [(Payload Operations Center)] there and build up that functionality. I had the funding for all the brand new services that we had been constructing for operations for House Station Freedom, after which it rolled into ISS [(International Space Station)].

Worldwide House Station (ISS) modules below development at NASA’s Marshall House Flight Heart in Huntsville, Ala. Credit score: NASA

SpaceFlight Insider: I bear in mind, years in the past, you used to have the ability to, I forgot which constructing it was, however you would go in and watch the US modules being constructed.

Hawes: That’s proper, yeah. They had been really welding the US modules proper there on web site. [Building] 4078. One thing like that. However yeah, numerous time in Marshall. A number of time again in Johnson [Space Center]. And Florida, in fact.

SpaceFlight Insider: However you’ve now been with Lockheed, and on the Orion program since . . .

Hawes: I’ve been doing the Orion program supervisor job for eight years. Since 2014.

SpaceFlight Insider: And there’s most likely not a typical day, however in case you needed to decide one, . . . most likely not proper now, it’s most likely hectic now, but when a 12 months in the past, I’d adopted you round for a day, what would that appear like?

Hawes: A number of conferences with NASA. A number of conferences dealing . . . a problem with our personal inside manufacturing, or it’s one in every of our key suppliers. It might be attempting to resolve points a few tiers down within the provide chain. It might be doing interviews. It might be speaking to workers up on the Hill. It may be any and all of that.

SpaceFlight Insider: So you continue to do some political kind . . .

Hawes: I do briefings. I don’t do lobbying, per se, however I do briefings.

The EFT-1 Orion crew module (coated by a portion of the Launch Abort System (LAS)) sits atop its United Launch Alliance (ULA) Delta IV Heavy launch car in 2014. Credit score: Jared Haworth / SpaceFlight Insider

SpaceFlight Insider: Okay, let’s transfer over to . . . Orion itself. I used to be fortunate sufficient to be down right here for EFT-1 [(Exploration Flight Test – 1, the first flight of Orion)], and noticed that launch. I assume you had been down right here too?

Hawes: I used to be down right here too.

SpaceFlight Insider: That [was] ’20 . . .

Hawes: It was 2014. December 2014.

SpaceFlight Insider: What had been you doing? You stated you’d been . . .

Hawes: I used to be program supervisor already. I had are available in over in the summertime to switch Cleon Lacefield, as a result of Cleon retired. And again then the management middle we used was, since ULA was conducting the launch, the NASA and Lockheed groups had been really over in Hangar AE, the Mission Director Heart there in Hangar AE.

SpaceFlight Insider: If I sat the Orion EFT-1 car subsequent to this Artemis 1 car and regarded inside and outside, clearly that one again then was black, and was it . . .

Hawes: That’s the primary one. This one’s silver, not black.

SpaceFlight Insider: Was the intention at all times to place the silver reflective coating on, or was the . . .

Hawes: That developed fairly rapidly as a greater thermal management coating. Higher emissivity than the black tile. I feel the black appears higher myself – however I’m form of partial – to the silver. However yeah, it’s a greater thermal . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Is the black tile nonetheless below . . .

The EFT-1 Orion crew module floats within the Pacific Ocean after splashdown on Dec. 5, 2014. Ocean. on Credit score: U.S. Navy

Hawes: Yeah. That’s that’s only a silicon oxide tape that’s on high of the tile. And the opposite factor that you simply’d see is that we had a dummy service module for EFT-1. And so, right here we’re actually flying the primary full up ESA [(European Space Agency)] service module. That’s the opposite huge, apparent, exterior change which you can see. The opposite factor, once we did EFT-1, is we flew a lot of the crucial methods of the spacecraft, however we didn’t fly, essentially, all of the strings of redundancy as a result of it was a brief, four-and-a-half hour, check flight. Right here we’re flying all of the flight computer systems, all the com[munication] gear, all the energy distribution gear. We’ve acquired all of the interfaces with the ESA service module. We don’t have the crew controls and shows. And we don’t have a number of the air-revitalization system.

SpaceFlight Insider: Within the Artemis 1 Orion, is there some environmental management / life assist?

Hawes: Nicely, you’re sustaining stress. You may have air. You may have thermal management.

SpaceFlight Insider: If I used to be in there, might I breathe?

Hawes: Not for lengthy.

SpaceFlight Insider: Okay. So, there’s not an lively . . .

Hawes: There’s not an lively, what we seek advice from, as air-revitalization. So, you’re not getting that refreshed. You’re not getting the carbon . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: No matter was in there once you shut the door, as soon as I’ve used that up, I’d be in unhealthy form?

The Artemis 1 Orion crew module sits atop the European Service Module at NASA’s Kennedy House Heart. Credit score: NASA

Hawes: Yeah. You would deliver your oxygen tank. You continue to have CO2 scrubbing [issues], though I feel we’ve a number of the CO2 scrubbing, nevertheless it’s not going to get strongly exercised.

Napier: Thermally, is it?

Hawes: Thermally, we’re okay.

Napier: Fairly lively thermal, from an ECLSS [(environmental control and life support system)] standpoint?

Hawes: Yeah, thermally we’re okay. As a result of we’ve acquired the complete . . .

Napier: So, you wouldn’t freeze.

SpaceFlight Insider: I most likely couldn’t go to the restroom both?

Hawes: We should not have the waste administration system. That’s true. We should not have that.

SpaceFlight Insider: What’s lacking from Artemis 1? Clearly, the complete life-support?

Hawes: These are the biggies. So, it’s the waste administration system. The train gadget. Among the different, we name it typically, crew tools. We’ve got a seat in there for Moonikin Campos, so we’ll have . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Is there only one seat? I do know there’s two different semi-torsos, nevertheless it’s only one seat?

Hawes: Yeah, and that’s for the Moonikin. And the torsos are form of mounted to the bulkhead there.

Napier: After which the mass simulator the place the pilot would sit. There’s no seat.

SpaceFlight Insider: Is that similar to a giant lead weight or . . .

The inside of the Artemis 1 Orion crew module on its flight to the moon, with Moonikin Campos on the left and a mass simulator on the precise. Credit score: NASA

Hawes: Nicely, an aluminum weight, extra possible. Sure. After which we don’t have shows. So, there are three show panels that may go in. After which there’s switches together with them as a result of we’re form of a hybrid cockpit, if you’ll. After which a number of the air-ducting, and CO2 scrubbing, and all that, we didn’t put into Artemis 1. Most of that’s put in now on Artemis 2, already. The crew shows are able to go in. We’re working a problem with fasteners, however . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Artemis 2 is . . .

Hawes: Artemis 2 is within the O&C [(Neil Armstrong Operations and Checkout Building)].

SpaceFlight Insider: Right here at KSC [(Kennedy Space Center)]?

Hawes: Yeah. We’ve already executed preliminary power-on testing. And now we’re doing that with the service module. So, we’re in meeting of a number of the remaining parts and the crew module. And the subsequent testing sequence with the crew module is early October. After which mid-December, primarily based on flying Monday [(August 29, 2022)], we anticipate to have all of the parts to switch from 1 to 2 . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: That was my subsequent query, you’re going to take some stuff out of 1 and . . .

Hawes: We’ve got 10 parts which have to maneuver from 1 to 2. And we anticipate these to be . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Is that avionics or . . .

Hawes: Most of it’s avionics. Among the crew methods stuff, just like the seat, we are able to reuse. I’ve acquired a listing, nevertheless it’s principally avionics. And so, just like the IMUs [(inertial measurement units)], and that’s a debate the place we could have to have Honeywell, over at Clearwater[, Florida], re-calibrate the IMUs. And that takes a bit time, however thankfully that’s West Coast Florida and East Coast Florida, so it’s . . .

The Artemis 2 Orion crew module below development at NASA’s Kennedy House Heart. Credit score: UPI

Napier: GPS?

Hawes: GPS receivers.

SpaceFlight Insider: That’s popping out of 1 and going into 2?

Hawes: That’s popping out of 1 to 2. The phased array antennas are popping out of 1 and go to 2.

SpaceFlight Insider: What’s the GPS do for you? Is that for touchdown?

Hawes: Yeah. Predominantly for touchdown.

SpaceFlight Insider: What did you, backing as much as EFT-1 Orion, I assume the warmth defend was the large factor you needed to find out about then, what did you be taught from EFT-1?

Hawes: So, once we put EFT-1 collectively, as a candidate mission, we checked out form of a parade of the excessive danger issues that we hadn’t executed for a very long time. And it turned out that we had been capable of seize just about the highest 17, or so, excessive danger occasions, mechanisms, these sorts of issues. So, at the beginning, the redo of Avcoat. We hadn’t used Avcoat since Apollo. And although we modified how we manufacture and apply it for Artemis 1 . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Again then it was smaller blocks and it’s larger items now? Or have I acquired it backwards?

Hawes: Nicely, we known as it, it was larger items then. We known as it monolithic. And if you consider it, the warmth defend is that this titanium body, a multi-layer composite pores and skin that’s, actually, mounted to that. After which, for EFT-1, we really glued a honeycomb construction on high of that, and stuffed all of the cells with Avcoat. And it tended to crack. It was a ache to fabricate. So, we proposed utilizing extra of a block-style, just like the tiles, to NASA. Did a bunch of testing. There’s nonetheless some of us that, I’d say, are nervous. I imply, I’ll simply be trustworthy. There are some of us that actually need to see that demonstrated. So, that’s the highest flight goal for this mission.

Napier: Mike, is it protected to say, as a result of the big aeroshells that we created for Mars, with Curiosity and Perseverance, had been block, they’re simply PICA [(phenolic impregnated carbon ablator)], did we pull from these . . .

Hawes: Totally different materials. Nicely, yeah, all . . .

Napier: From that studying of how you can do block . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: I don’t know that I keep in mind that. Y’all did the heatshields for . . .

Hawes: We do all of the Mars aeroshells. Now, the fabric is PICA. These are the 2 competing supplies for the high-speed reentries. So, that reentry system experience is one thing that we’ve throughout the corporate. And the oldsters that labored on Orion are additionally the oldsters which have labored on the planetary missions. And, actually, my heat-shield lead is now over working MAVIS [(Mars Ascent Vehicle Integrated System)] and the sample-return missions. Darn it.

The Artemis 1 Orion heatshield, previous to mating with the crew module, at NASA’s Kennedy House Heart. Credit score: NASA

SpaceFlight Insider: So, one of many huge belongings you need to check out of this mission is the brand new development methodology, or the brand new meeting methodology, for the heatshield?

Hawes: That’s proper. And so, that’s a biggie. The opposite issues that we did on EFT-1 is we demonstrated all the crucial separation occasions. As you’re going up, on launch, you’re jettisoning the panels that encompass the service module. You’re jettisoning the abort tower. Coming again residence, you’re separating the crew and the service module. So, all of these pyrotechnic gadgets had been a giant deal for EFT-1. However you need to do these each mission. So, these are a part of . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Has any of that modified? Or are you just about utilizing . . .

Hawes: No. These have just about stayed the identical. However the different factor, like I say, we didn’t have full redundancy. Like, we didn’t have all three flight computer systems. We had all of the phased array antennas, however another methods we had been single-string on. And now, it’s not simply that you’ve the complete redundancy, however you’re additionally working with that ahead _____ [(inaudible)]. So, you’ve flight software program that’s sensing, and making swaps, and transferring. We’ve got a protected mode within the spacecraft for sure failures, and the spacecraft itself goes right into a protected mode. So, much more software program. Much more fault detection / enunciation-type functionality. Much more information. We’ve got on the order of two,500 measurements on what we name DFI, or developmental flight instrumentation, on this mission which are all, an entire bunch of these are, warmth defend. However they’re everywhere in the spacecraft. And so, that’s going to feed the entire information evaluation that then says okay, we’ve validated this design and now we’re going to go to production-mode and construct the identical factor.

SpaceFlight Insider: On this mission, Artemis 1, Orion goes to be coming again in at what? 25,000+ miles an hour?

Napier: 24,600, and as much as 25,000.

SpaceFlight Insider: EFT-1 was not fairly that?

Hawes: EFT-1, . . . we got here in at 20,000 [miles per hour].

Napier: [And] 4,000 levels.

Hawes: Yeah, 4,000 levels temperature [and] 20,000 [miles per hour].

Napier: Artemis 1 goes to see upwards of 5000 levels on this heatshield.

Hawes: Yeah.

SpaceFlight Insider: Substantial [difference]?

Hawes: Substantial and the warmth load just isn’t a linear operate. It’ll be a superb check.

SpaceFlight Insider: Okay. You stated Artemis 2 is below development. And if Artemis 1 flies Monday, hopefully, and also you get your stuff again and there’s not any main issues with it, when are you hoping to have Artemis 2 able to go?

Hawes: So, we’re hoping that Artemis 2 can go by the tip of ‘23, early ‘24.

SpaceFlight Insider: And that’s simply Orion? Clearly, you’ve acquired to have a rocket that’s prepared?

Hawes: NASA is absolutely pushing us to show over Artemis 2 by March of ‘23. Our date says a bit bit later. So, we’re working as you’re testing. We are able to change meeting duties . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: That’s not too far? We’re August of ‘22 — eight, 9 months?

Hawes: We check the parts individually. So, we began the CM [(Orion Command Module)] testing. We’re doing the SM [(European Service Module)] testing. We’ll comply with this normal observe of particular person testing. We’ve got to do acoustic testing, thermal testing. Get all these parts in. And we’ve had some debates of . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Do y’all do all of that right here, or does it need to go as much as . . .

Hawes: It’s all right here. And that’s the important thing. Protecting it at this module stage is what permits us to do it right here quite than having to go off to separate services like, Artemis 1 we took to Plumbrook[, Ohio — the location of NASA’s Neil A. Armstrong Test Facility –] and did every little thing up there. However that rooted our fashions in order that now we are able to do the work right here. And you then put the 2 collectively and you’ve got all of the collection of a circulate that’s the CSM [(Command and Service Module)] circulate collectively, after which to show it over to EGS [(Exploration Ground Systems)].

SpaceFlight Insider: And the Artemis 2 service module is right here?

Hawes: Oh yeah.

The Artemis 1 Crew Module Adapter, put in between the crew and repair modules at NASA’s Kennedy House Heart. Credit score: NASA

SpaceFlight Insider: And I do know that’s a European venture . . .

Hawes: Nicely, you’ve acquired the European piece after which you’ve the higher ring – known as the Crew Module Adapter . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: Do they make that in Huntsville?

Hawes: No. We make it.

SpaceFlight Insider: Okay. There’s some . . .

Hawes: Huntsville has made the adapter, the transitions between the rocket and Orion.

SpaceFlight Insider: Okay. The place the CubeSats are?

Hawes: Yeah.

SpaceFlight Insider: After which I feel additionally they make the LVSA [(Launch Vehicle Stage Adapter)]?

Hawes: They do.

SpaceFlight Insider: Or Teledyne Brown?

Hawes: Teledyne does there.

The Artemis 2 Launch Car Stage Adapter (LVSA) below development at NASA’s Marshall House Flight Heart. Credit score: NASA

SpaceFlight Insider: To kind of wrap up, you’ve been with NASA, and now Lockheed Martin, all collectively, many, a few years. And also you’ve been engaged on this for a lot of, a few years. How does it really feel to lastly get to, hopefully, three days earlier than launch?

Hawes: Nicely, it’s form of wonderful to be simply three days earlier than launch. It’s actually been form of a driving theme of my profession to get us again to the moon. So, it feels fairly good to be right here.

SpaceFlight Insider: Do you intend on staying on some time?

Hawes: I plan on going to be a full-time grandfather.

SpaceFlight Insider: The place would that be?

Hawes: In Virginia.

SpaceFlight Insider: You reside in Houston now?

Hawes: I bounce between Houston and Virginia. Really, as I say, my spouse and my home are in Virginia, together with my daughter and her household, so . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: You’re not going to be with this system till Artemis 3?

Hawes: No. I’m going to retire after this mission.

SpaceFlight Insider: Proper after this mission?

Hawes: I have already got my successor, Tonya Ladwig.

SpaceFlight Insider: Has that been introduced?

Hawes: Nicely, it’s within the rumor mill. I don’t assume we really put something out.

Tonya Ladwig, Lockheed Martin House Programs Firm, Vice President for Human House Exploration, and Orion Program Supervisor. Credit score: Lockheed Martin

Napier: Nicely, it’s public, nevertheless it wasn’t introduced. She’ll be right here in a day or two, too.

Hawes: Yeah, Tonya is the incoming program supervisor, and she or he’s really doing all of the day-to-day stuff with Artemis 2 and past, now, in order that I might concentrate on . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: So, you’re executed as quickly as this factor launches?

Hawes: No, when the mission’s executed.

SpaceFlight Insider: Oh, in 42 days?

Hawes: Keep in mind, Orion is 42 days. The rocket is . . .

SpaceFlight Insider: So, you’re executed someday, hopefully, in late October?

Hawes: Yeah. That’s the plan.

SpaceFlight Insider: The place in Virginia?

Hawes: Winchester. We’re constructing a home that’s form of the north finish of the Shenandoah Valley.

SpaceFlight Insider: Nicely, that’s a superb place to go.

Hawes: Yeah. It’s a fairly place.

Artemis 1 ended up launching, on its third attempt, at 1:47 a.m. EST (06:47 UTC) Nov. 16, 2022. Its Orion crew capsule has now orbited around the Moon and it will splashdown off the coast of Baja California on Dec. 11, 2022.

Tagged: Artemis 1 Artemis 2 Artemis I Artemis program ESA Human Space Flight Kennedy Space Center Lockheed-Martin NASA Orion Space Launch System The Range

Scott Johnson

Scott earned each a Bachelor’s Diploma in public administration, and a legislation diploma, from Samford College in Birmingham, Alabama. He at the moment practices legislation within the Birmingham suburb of Homewood. Scott first remembers visiting Marshall House Flight Heart in 1978 to get an up-close take a look at the primary orbiter, Enterprise, which had been transported to Huntsville for dynamic testing. Extra lately, in 2006, he participated in an effort at the USA House and Rocket Heart (USSRC) to revive the long-neglected Skylab 1-G Coach. This led to a volunteer place, with the USSRC curator, the place he labored for a number of years sustaining displays and archival materials, together with flown area {hardware}.

Scott attended the STS – 110, 116 and 135 shuttle launches, together with Ares I-X, Atlas V MSL and Delta IV NROL-15 launches. Extra lately, he coated the Atlas V SBIRS GEO-2 and MAVEN launches, together with the Antares ORB-1, SpaceX CRS-3, and Orion EFT-1 launches.